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David
Posts:499
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| 05/22/2009 10:48 PM |
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Actually, you've sort of negated the need for an explanation by saying you would like to buy your guy something. Basically what I'm saying is if girls get a ring, why don't guys get something?
I think I'm so used to girls automatically jumping down my throat whenever I even suggest that engagement rings, as the practice stands today, might not be the best thing, that I sort of over-compensate initially when I'm talking to the few rare girls who are actually willing to discuss it. My bad, haha. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Nicole
Posts:547
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| 05/22/2009 11:54 PM |
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Oooh! I think i get it now. haha.  No problem David. I see where you're coming from. I do think it a wonderful idea for the guys to get something. As for myself, i have no problem whatsoever with you dumping questions (or comments) for us girls to answer. The whole reason this forum exists is to talk about (the books) topics, and questions for the opposite gender. *correct me if i'm wrong about the reason* Sorry David, some girls can be *ahem* catty.  |
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whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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maddiegirl
Posts:210
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| 05/23/2009 3:59 PM |
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| Personally, I don't really care what my ring is made of as long as I have one to remind me of my commitment to my sppuse. Its only a material possession and simply a reminder of your marriage. With that said, I think the ring should be a desgin/color/etc. that means something to both of u. That said, it doesnt hafta be a diamond. |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/23/2009 5:43 PM |
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Maddiegirl, I'm not sure, but are you talking about engagement rings? I think you would be, as that's what the discussion has been about.
"Personally, I don't really care what my ring is made of as long as I have one to remind me of my commitment to my sppuse."
I must ask some questions in response to this statement. Am I to take that to mean that without the ring, you would forget about your commitment? If you aren't apt to forget, why the need of the reminder (meaning, we only make or leave reminders for ourselves about things we are likely to forget)? And if you are likely to forget about your commitment, does that not make you more likely to cheat? And if the reasoning of the statement you made is true of most or all girls (for it is reasoning I've heard a lot), does that mean that most or all girls are likely to cheat? And does that mean that there is something inherent to being female that makes women naturally unfaithful?
Now, you probably think that I'm totally crazy and have gone down a path that you never intended by your statement. However, taking your statement as what it appears to mean, the path I've gone down is the logical conclusion. If girls have to have a reminder that they are committed to a guy, that means girls are naturally unfaithful. I don't believe this, nor do I want to. That said, I've heard the "it's a reminder of my commitment / sign that I'm taken" reasoning a lot, and it's never sat well with me for the above insinuated reasons.
Also, Maddiegirl, would you be opposed to presenting your husband with a physical symbol just as he presented one to you? Here I am speaking most definitely of the engagement ring practice. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Nicole
Posts:547
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| 05/25/2009 2:48 AM |
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No, no, girls are not likely to cheat nor are we apt to. (I'm not angry here, sorry if it sounds that way guys) *those of us who have morals anyway. And that doesn't apply to any of us on this forum.* David, you are not crazy at all, logic is a good thing.  I think what Maddiegirl was getting at was that the ring is a tangible reminder of her commitment. Please correct me if i'm wrong Maddiegirl. Of course we know that we are engaged/married and we already are commited, I'm thinking the ring is only a tangible reminder, which is sometimes a nice thing to have. (Going off on a tangent here, a picture of the guy/girl for the significant other that you can carry with you would be a lovely thing) |
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whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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David
Posts:499
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| 05/25/2009 11:50 AM |
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So are you saying the ring acts in the same way a picture would? That's an interesting point. If true, it does alleviate the logical necessity of infidelity.
However, if true, it does beg the question: why the ring is of so much more importance than the picture? |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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Nicole
Posts:547
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| 05/26/2009 12:06 AM |
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In a way, yes that is what i am getting at: that a ring, like a picture, serves as a tangible reminder, along with the knowledge of the fact.
As far as your other Q goes David, to be honest, I'm not entirely sure. However it might have something to do with women and jewelry; (not that all girls wear or put a high value on jewelry, I testify to that)
A scenario that comes to mind, if we had the picture replace the ring, would be the guy and the girl talking together about a serious commitment together; the guy then gives his girl a picture of him along with some romantic line or other, and she accepts it and keeps it as a tangible reminder along with the knowledge in her heart- that she is committed to this guy.
I know this scenario is not exactly the best one, but i guess it just came to mind. Does anybody else have something to add? |
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whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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James
Posts:35
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| 05/28/2009 4:40 AM |
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Hmm I must say I've never thought of half of the issues that David has pointed out in such great detail with a good deal of logic behind them.
I've noticed that David uses logic to point out the apparent flaws in people's statements or asks questions to clarify someone's opinion which is probably where he gets into trouble even though it works.
In my own experience earlier this year I gave a copper bracelet I made myself, to a girl I liked for her birthday. She told me she really appreciated it but it really touched me when I found out that she was still wearing it almost every day. Another time I gave her a rose and I felt bad because it only cost me $4 but she said she felt bad because she hadn't given me anything in return.
So from my limited knowledge it seems that girls would like to give back to guys that give to them but it may even be the same cultural mindset that expects the men to give as the women to receive gifts. Obviously it has nothing to do with the money but perhaps the sacrifice you were willing to make and your feelings that compelled you to do so.
I do think that by the time you are proposing/being proposed to you would be in a very close relationship with your partner and so you should know what they would want in the way of a ring. Different people have different expectations and there are different love languages eg. compliments, time, gifts, service, touch.
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Nicole
Posts:547
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| 05/28/2009 8:59 PM |
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| From what i know, i do believe it true that girls do like to give back to guys; from personal experience, i know that some girls give without thought of anything in return. Of course giving doesn't necessarily mean it has to involve money, for example, some girls appreciate the gift of time, a very precious gift indeed. |
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whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain |
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Stupor
Posts:5
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| 06/02/2009 7:17 PM |
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| I find this topic extremely interesting. Here in Cambodia both the woman and the man are given rings when they become engaged so it sounds like Cambodia is the perfect place for some people to be. Men give rings as a symbol of their love and yes, of their commitment. It's a personal choice to do this but........if you don't want to give the girl a ring because you have the personal belief that somehow it undervalues men then don't give the girl a ring or find the girl who doesn't want a ring. Find the girl who believes the same as you do, who will be willing to wait for you at the alter as you walk down the aisle. Because obviously the woman walking down the aisle and the man waiting for her means that the woman must somehow be viewed as more important because they must be waited for. Other men desire to show their love by giving a ring, that is their choice. Some men are so over the moon for their girls that they just want to make a public statement that she's said yes, that she's going to be his. These guys want to give their girls more than a ring, they would go to space and rope a star for her if he could. It's just a difference of opinion. Some men show their love by giving material gifts, other men choose other ways. A man giving his girl an engagement ring is not admitting that he's of lesser value than a woman. Giving an engagement ring is a gesture of love and a show of serious commitment on the mans part and the girls part is acceptance and the wearing of the ring which shows her love and commitment to her man. But also what comes to my mind is that marriage is not 50/50, neither should relationships be. We should not be dating someone or marrying someone with the thoughts "what can I get from this person". We should give 100 percent, all of ourselves. We should be putting our partner and his/her needs above our own, viewing them as more important in every way. It's what Christ wanted, it's what He told us to do. Christ is the perfect picture of selflessness, He gave Himself up for us because He saw our need for a savior. It's not about being equal, it's about loving the other person enough to put their needs above his/her own, making them more important; it's a full commitment. It's not easy, we're all selfish beings but we strive to be like Christ and His example. |
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BarrelRacer
Posts:8
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| 06/02/2009 7:26 PM |
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| My thought would be that if the guy gets down one knee and says he has fallen head over heels for me and all, just to see the look on his face is enough for me. But i guess i also see the ring as a sign that the woman is spoken for, but yet i will contrdict myself here and say that it is not needed. My parents didnt have rings till they were married. So i guess the only reason i see that the world needs it is because the woman wants to show it off. |
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BarrelRacer
Posts:8
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| 06/02/2009 7:26 PM |
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| My thought would be that if the guy gets down one knee and says he has fallen head over heels for me and all, just to see the look on his face is enough for me. But i guess i also see the ring as a sign that the woman is spoken for, but yet i will contrdict myself here and say that it is not needed. My parents didnt have rings till they were married. So i guess the only reason i see that the world needs it is because the woman wants to show it off. |
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MyLifeHisWill
Posts:184
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| 06/08/2009 4:12 PM |
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David, I respect your points, but lets slow down.
LOVE IS NOT LOGIC.
Ok, I'm glad I got that out. Love is not logic. Love is not logic. Love is not logic. In fact, love is something that far surpasses logic. I'm trying not to be at all angered, because I find you a very knowlegable person who is great at explaining himself, however, you have crossed my line lol
Yes, I am a girl. Yes, I have been planning my wedding for years. Yes, I am planning on dressing up and being a princess for the day. Yes, I hope my fiance gets me a ring. Now, let me explain.
My boyfriend is a very "stylish" guy. He hates when his clothes dont match. He notices detail. He loves to tell me when two things I'm wearing dont' "go" (in a loving fashion of course). Thus, he may have alot to say about our wedding day. But...um....I can honestly tell you (for the majority, not all of guys) that most guys are not so much concerned with the ceremony and the colors - but the night after the festivities. Like honestly. Girls spend thier days dreaming about the wedding details since a young age. Ever since you've had hormones, I think the "magic" kind of outwieghs the white flowers vs. the pink ones. Not to say the girls are thrilled for the night, nor to say the guys not interested in the decorations or cake flavor - but you get my point. Now, Sir David, you have made a brilliant connection in former posts that guy porn=romance/emotional for girls. I would love to relate that here. --------- On your wedding nite you will watch your beautiful bride stand before you looking quite "arousing" to your eyes ( i will not give detail Im sure you catch my drift), and filling a void in your soul and flaming your passions - in the proper, godly setting as it was always intended to be. ---------- On her wedding day, your bride will be living out the romantic fantasy in her heart that has been stiring for years. She will feel beautiful, loved, and like the princess she's always dreamed of being. You, as her husband, will have the joy of being her Prince Charming and picturing your furutre of protecting the girl you pursued and FINALLY caught. That night your princess will LIVE to please you and hope to satisfy the hunger you've had for years, and it will be her pleasure to make you as happy as you've ever been. Don't you see? Men and Women may be equal before God, but thier needs, dreams, and drives are entirely different - why? they complete eachother! You see, the wedding, the dress, the ring - it satisfies the romantic desires of a woman for her husband to see her a beautiful, worth the world, and totally enchanting. It makes all their fantasies come true! And...the wedding night? Don't you understand that that FINALLY quenches the man's thirst, stimulates his "visual wires" and finally completes and far surpases all your fantasies? The whole point is to join together the desires of both sexes into a wonderful 24 hours that satisfies the hunger and needs of both!
I would also like to tell you I said to my boyfriend not long ago (stealing a line I got from facebook) "If it meant marrying you with a ringpop instead of a diamond - i'd do it." And honestly, I would. When you love someone, that stuff fades. The dress, the flowers, the tiara - its not that important. I just want to spend forever with him. However, he responed, "THATS NOT HAPPENING!" I know he wont be able to afford a huge diamond, and I don't want one. But I do want that symbol on my hand saying, "Hey boys, I'm taken, and I'm totally enthralled with my finace" Its kind of like a purity ring. Will I forget my committment without it? Of course not! But I love looking down at the aquamarine heart set in white gold that I wear on my finger everday. Someday, I want it to be replaced with a ring saying I gave all I have to my husband. Do I need it to be faithful? No, but its a beautiful thing.
Honestly, I think you guys kind of sound cheep and selfish for saying you "dont want to" get your girl a ring. Really, if you love a girl, I think the ring seems like the least you can do. Do you want to know what I plan on giving my husband in return? Not a romantic night with a sweet proposal and a ring (satisfying a woman's fantasies), but a wedding night that I assure you I have always planned was going to be all about my husband. I will dress and act to please him. Again, I'm not going to go into detail or be sketchy, but I have always thought of that night as a night to give him what I know he's been waiting for. Have i? Of course! But not nearly as intensely as my husband will have been.
Okay.,..i think im done. lol |
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I don't want to just "live" I want to experience life. |
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David
Posts:499
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| 06/08/2009 6:34 PM |
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MyLifeHisWill, I thank you for your well thought out and written reply.
Even though this is out of order, I'm going to respond to what you said about the wedding day and night. I think you make a good point, one that has never occured to me. However, I don't think you can call them exclusives. It does make sense that the day satisfies the girl more than the guy, and possibly the reverse for the night, but that doesn't mean the day should be all about the girl and the night all about the guy. Using your premise, saying that a girl should have complete control over the day because it means more to her would have to be coupled with the guy having complete control over the night. I don't think either parties want that. Also, perhaps what appears to be natural gender emphases are actually based more on the culture we've been raised in. Maybe guys aren't as interested in the details of a wedding day because they've always been told that those belong to the girl, so they never bothered. Maybe girls aren't as interested in the wedding night because, particularly in most Christian circles, their sexuality has been completely stifled (in a bad way). So while I think you make good points, I don't think it's quite as black and white as you make it seem (though maybe that's not your intention). Finally, part of what makes what you're saying valid is the girls willingness to willfully and happily meet her husband's expectations that night (just as he has met hers all day). I don't think that many women think along those lines, even if you do (and I greatly respect that you do).
"Love is not logic."
No, it's not, but that doesn't mean logic shouldn't be a part of love. You could use your statement and say that if a guy loves you, he'll essentially act as your slave, always giving in to your will. I'm sure you would say that it is wrong, at least in part because you used your capacity for reason. Logic (and true love) tells us that for a relationship to work both people must have their needs met, and neither should be inapropriately set over the other. Love without logic is brash and burns out and logic without love is cold and brittle.
As far as the engagement ring is concerned, I just can't get past how, once you can remove your perspective from your culture (as much as possible), it becomes apparant that it is a practice based on nothing but cultural teaching. And I ask you this, think of all the reasons why a girl should receive an engagement ring, why do those reasons not apply to a guy? You seem to say that the girl should get the pursuit, the proposal, the engagement ring and the wedding day, and he should get the wedding night. This is hardly right or loving. My solution to the problem I see isn't to remove the practice of giving an engagment ring, it's to have the girls start giving the guys a symbol of commitment as well. So tell me, if you truly loved a guy and genuinely wanted to marry him, why would you be unwilling to get him something? Just because "that's not what's done"? What if it's what he wanted, just as you want an engagement ring? Would you begrudge him that?
It's not cheap or selfish to want both genders to be valued. Sometimes that means talking about equal employment opportunities for women, and sometimes that means talking about social practices that devalue men. Of course, only one of those is considered socially acceptable.
To sort of reiterate...
"Do you want to know what I plan on giving my husband in return? Not a romantic night with a sweet proposal and a ring (satisfying a woman's fantasies), but a wedding night that I assure you I have always planned was going to be all about my husband."
I thought you had already established the wedding day as equivalent to the wedding night. If so, what is equivalent to the engagement ring? |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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David
Posts:499
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| 06/08/2009 6:34 PM |
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| One more question. Why is it wrong for me, as a guy, to expect a dowry? |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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David
Posts:499
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| 06/08/2009 6:39 PM |
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Posted By BarrelRacer on 06/02/2009 7:26 PM
My thought would be that if the guy gets down one knee and says he has fallen head over heels for me and all, just to see the look on his face is enough for me. But i guess i also see the ring as a sign that the woman is spoken for, but yet i will contrdict myself here and say that it is not needed. My parents didnt have rings till they were married. So i guess the only reason i see that the world needs it is because the woman wants to show it off.
This is exactly the attitude I think girls should have. Massive kudos to you, BarrelRacer. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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David
Posts:499
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| 06/08/2009 7:15 PM |
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| Also, MyLifeHisWill, I think you perhaps overestimate the male sex drive. Yes, it is strong, yes, we definitely can't wait to indulge it, but it is certainly not the most important thing, by a long shot. I always get a little irritated when guys are seen as only our sex drive and nothing else. |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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MyLifeHisWill
Posts:184
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| 06/11/2009 11:20 AM |
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David~
I do agree that men are not all about sex, and that there is much more to men than such drives. In fact, my boyfriend is such an example of that point, so I don't mean to come across as if I am saying that.
Also, I wasn't meaning to be so black and white with the whole wedding day/night. Obviously the girl will very much enjoy the night, and I think its only fair for the guy to have a say in the day. However, just to throw this in there - the girl and HER family pay for the wedding - so if its centered around her its not too suprising. Nonetheless, I have no problem with my husband helping me make decisions and I would love his imput.
Also, I agree that the engagement ring is ingraned in my mind and heart because of the culture, and yes, its not necissarily fair, however I wonder, What would I get my husband? I still think the man should propose, but I have NO problem whatsoever with getting my husband some sign of committment. I just wonder what exactly that would be. I would love to honor him with some sign of love, however, I'm at a loss as to just what.
Yes, logic is important. And I must say I have been greatly impressed with your ability to take something so simple and pick it apart and make all of us look at it in a completely different light. I mean, you challenge us to think through what we used to just accept. Which I find very impressive. I am a more....idk....deep thinker? I don't really look into things with logic, but symbolism, meaning, and deapth. I like to look at things outside the box, almost outside the rules. So trapping love, or acts of love, into a box of logic, is new to me. Not to mention I'm a romantic at heart, so a discussion on such a romantic act being "bad" or "immoral" caught my farytale heart off-guard lol.
So, in conclusion, yea I think the one-sided act of an engagement ring could be very much selfish on a girl's part, however I think getting a guy something in return is better than eliminating the practice altogether.
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I don't want to just "live" I want to experience life. |
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David
Posts:499
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| 06/11/2009 3:28 PM |
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Nowadays, it seems the girl's family pays far less often. I can't remember the last time I heard about a wedding where the bride's family paid. Even if they do pay, though, it's still partly his day.
Everything else I pretty much agree with. I think one of the reasons you don't know what to get him is that the culture has never given any thought to what we'd want. In this specific regard, all thought has been given to the woman. In fact, men, having grown up with the same messages as you, might not know what they want either. The idea of a ring, having so long been feminine, will most likely not sit well (though, the wedding ring is not feminine; that is the culture at play in our minds). What I'm suggesting is really changing the entire cultural belief, though how to do something some grand is beyond me, other than to just talk about it to people.
Eliminating the practice or giving the guy something sort of comes to the same thing. If both people receive something, the practice, in my mind, then has meaning.
You want to know the ironic thing about me? Though you'd never believe it based on how I talk on here, I'm probably one of the most romantic guys you'll ever meet. I absolutely love doing romantic things for a girl, and, if I do say so myself, I'm pretty dang good at it, haha . Shocking, isn't it? |
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Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
- C.S. Lewis |
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JoJo
Posts:1657
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| 06/11/2009 7:34 PM |
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HAHA! Thats actually quite funny. in a good way david.
I agree with Mylifehiswill... and I agree with you too... (Just so you know... My dad's expecting that he's gonna be paying for my wedding... I have made a decision to contribute as much as I, myself, can so he doesn't have to pay that much... Cuz my dad's a single parent... so yeah... it's mostly on his shoulders... which Im trying to help with etc... especially for my bro, cuz I don't want him to grow up without having a female figure in his life...)
Anyway... after that random explanation (i do alot of those )
I actually have a really good idea what I'd give my husband in return... but idk if I wanna exactly say what it is on here, cuz, well, it's kinda cheesey and idk... |
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Turn up the music
Turn it up loud
Take a few chances
Let it all out
'Cause you won't regret it
Lookin' back from where you have been
'Cause it's not who you knew
And it's not what you did
It's how you live
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God Bless!
Mwah XOXO
JoJo |
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